[Audio Intro / Jingles]
Chris and Julie on LCR FM.
Chris: Well, we've got a special guest in the studio today. Norman Howie is the Head of Operations at Xeric Limited, of the Gelder Group. And he's going to be talking about bedbugs. But before we talk to Norman about bedbugs, because they seem to be in the news at the moment, don't they?
Julie: Very much so, yeah.
Chris: Let's have a bit of a potted history on the bedbugs. Now, they were around before, would you believe it, humans were. The ancient Greeks thought that hanging the feet of a hare or stag from the end of your bed might ward off the creatures.
Julie: Well, the Romans proved no more effective, and one legend is that Nero sparked the Great Fire of Rome in AD 64 by lighting a fire to tackle bedbugs that were keeping him awake.
Chris: Well, thanks to Britain's status as an island, it was hundreds of years before we fell victim. By the 14th century, bedbugs were, as today, tormenting the residents of Paris, but it was another two centuries before they crossed the Channel, with the first recorded bites in England dating from 1583.
Julie: Well, the bedbugs quickly made up for lost time, and by 1690 had even reached the royal family. Many methods were used to try and deal with them, some of which proved more fatal to the householders than the bugs. From the late 1940s, DDT became a miracle cure, but because of the toxic effect on the environment, the use of DDT was banned in most developed countries by the 1980s. And by the end of the 20th century, bedbugs were back.
Chris: But can I just say, I'm delighted that Norman hasn't brought any bedbugs in with him today because I was thinking, "Is he going to bring some in a little jam jar?" Anyway, Norman, welcome!
Norman: Thank you. Good morning.
Chris: Good to see you, good to see you. And, uh...
Julie: I think as we mentioned, bedbugs are very much in the news at the moment. Nationally, there's been a 65% increase in the incidence of bedbugs in the UK in the last 12 months. Um, are you seeing an increased number of calls asking for help dealing with them?
Norman: Oh, absolutely. Certainly around Lincolnshire, our calls have increased to three and four times the normal rate. We're obviously a national company, so we're dealing with, with businesses and, and homes around the UK. But certainly Lincolnshire, say, three to four times the rate. I think it's a lot to do with the fact it's in the news, people are becoming more vigilant, they're more concerned, and they're more aware. So they're actually spotting what they maybe didn't spot before. So I think it's only going to get worse, to be fair, until we get it cleared up. So, I wouldn't necessarily say I haven't got some with me, Chris, to be fair.
Chris: (Laughs) So, what are the signs, then, of an infestation?
Norman: Okay, well, from, from a point of view of the public looking for this, you would look for—certainly let's look at your bedsheets. If you see any little bloodstains, or any dark specks, you know, not to be too crude, that's the bedbug poo. Um, musty smell on the mattress, like a sweet smell on the mattress. If you notice anything like that, or any little bite marks on your, your body, then clearly that's a, that's an indication.
Julie: And can you see the bedbugs?
Norman: Well, bedbugs themselves, when they're just—when you start off with eggs, you'd be looking for like, tiny, pale yellow eggs, or you would maybe see some shredded skin. But the adult bedbugs, they take about seven weeks to develop, and they'd be about the size of a, a grain of rice. So that's the size they are, so you will see them.
Julie: Right.
Norman: Um, and they're not particularly nice little creatures...
Julie: Because I think I've seen videos of them on the tube and places like that.
Norman: Correct, and that would be an adult bedbug. And the key thing to point out is that, you know, they may go unnoticed in your home for up to two months because once you've got maybe a few adults in, in your home, around the area, then they, as they breed and develop, you may not even notice a couple, two or three. It's only whenever you see a lot more and there's an infestation in your home, that's when it becomes a concern.
Julie: If you've got dogs or cats or any sort of animals, pets, do they sort of live on those as well, or are they purely in, in sort of the sheets?
Norman: No, there's, there's no evidence that they're living off um, animals, domestic animals.
Julie: Okay.
Norman: They, they live off human blood. They're, if you like, little, their little vampires of the insect world.
Julie: Right. I think while we have a scratch, shall we have a break for a record? Because I'm already scratching my neck. (Laughs)
[Music Break]
Neil Diamond - Sweet Caroline
Chris: Neil Diamond there with "Sweet Caroline," the first choice from our guest this morning, Norman Howie, the Head of Operations at Xeric Limited, part of the Gelder Group. But he's talking about bedbugs. We've just had an amazing conversation off-air while that record was playing.
Julie: Yes, and the scratching's not getting any worse. But you were explaining just about where bedbugs live and how long they can live without feeding. Explain, please, Norman.
Norman: Yeah, of course. I mean, the, the myth is that bedbugs, because of their name, live in beds only. Well, actually they don't. (Laughs) They live in any soft furnishings, so as an example, if someone thinks, "I've got bedbugs, I've seen bedbugs," they immediately throw their mattress and their bed away, and they think, "Great, I've got rid of them." Unfortunately, these little nasty creatures, they live in your carpet. They actually hide in behind skirting boards, they'll go into your electrical sockets. If you've got a, a chair in your bedroom, they'll live in there. If you've even got a laptop case in, in your bedroom normally, if...
Chris: And you were saying the headboard as well?
Norman: Headboard, everywhere, that's where they'll live. So throwing your mattress out isn't enough. And then everyone thinks, "Well, I've got rid of some bedbugs and that's it, done." But an adult bedbug can live for four to five months without feeding again.
Julie: Wow.
Chris: That's incredible, isn't it? Really.
Julie: So they can sit in your electric socket for four to five months and then decide that they're ready to eat...
Norman: Absolutely.
Julie: ...and come back out and re-infest—or, in fact, not really re-infest because the infestation's never gone away.
Norman: Correct. And indeed, if there's a few adults hiding away in a socket, which you're not going to unscrew the sockets every two seconds, they could be breeding in there. And you would not even know, even though you've got rid of your old bed.
Chris: So, they bite you. Is it—are they itch? Can you sort of tell when you've been bitten? I mean, we've all been bitten from time to time, and we've all had sort of bites of one thing or another, but uh, bedbugs seem—Why is it coming back into the news now?
Norman: I think it's, well, it's really a lot to do with the whole Paris thing. You know, Paris have got the Olympics next year, this was spotted in, in some commercial premises...
Chris: Right.
Norman: ...and it's all kicked off. But to be quite honest, there's been a lot of movement of people around Europe. As we know, there's a lot of refugees have come into, to Britain and across Europe—a lot of movement of people. And then everyone started to move around and go on holiday after the pandemic. And these little creatures, if they are alive in bedrooms, hotel bedrooms, and they're not particularly well looked after, not well vacuumed and so on, they'll, they'll get into your cases.
We can't mention the companies, but it's been on, online quite a lot, some holiday villages who have had issues with them. There's even been a government building that has had issues, and that's an office block. Why would it be there?
Julie: And a library recently, in the last couple of days.
Norman: A library, correct, in London, yeah. And this is the point, and it's making it very clear, bedbugs are not just in your bed, they're everywhere. So whenever you come back, just—I know we're going to ask other questions—but just a point when you're traveling, if they get into your suitcases, when you come back from holiday or a work journey or whatever, don't put your suitcases straight on top of your bed. Everybody does that.
Chris: Yeah.
Norman: Don't. Put them in the utility room, get the clothes into the wash, and keep the case well out of the road from the bedroom. Don't put it on top of your bed.
Julie: So say you had a, a chest freezer big enough, should you just put your suitcase and all your clothes in the chest freezer?
Norman: Well, yes, that, that would be an option. Um, I'm not sure everyone will have that opportunity, but... (Laughs)
Julie: No, no, I mean, certainly we haven't got...
Norman: But certainly, while we're on the subject, you know, it's again, so many people nowadays wash all their clothing, including bed linen, at a low temperature, at 30 degrees and 40 degrees. That, that may kill the actual live bugs and so on, but eggs won't die. Only 25% of eggs will die. You really need, if you've got a problem with bedbugs, you need to be washing all your clothing at 60 degrees.
The only thing is that, Chris is wearing a very nice Aston Martin racing jumper, if you put that into the wash at 60 degrees... (Laughs)
Chris: (Laughs)
Norman: ...I'm sure it would only fit one of his grandchildren, not himself, to be fair.
Julie: It's all right, he hasn't got one any longer. (Laughs) No. So is it possible, Norman, for someone to treat an infestation themselves, or just it's too complicated for—? For example, in the past if I've found a flea on my dog, you know, I've stripped the bed, I've boil-washed it all, I've treated everything that the dog's—just in case, just in case—and that's seemed to have rectified the problem. But I, I guess this is more complicated.
Norman: Yeah, and the, the dog issue, you're correct, that, that more or less does the, does the, uh, sorts the problem out. But to deal with them all on your own, no. Um, you may get rid of them initially, and as I said already, some people just throw their bed out and they think that's it sorted.
Chemicals are very harmful. Uh, the only one that'll definitely kill bedbugs instantly is ethanol, paint thinner. You don't go around putting that in your home.
Julie: No.
Norman: Uh, everyone is, you know, nowadays have got real issues with um, immune system, a lot more people have got asthma and so on, so using chemicals uh, could be very dangerous. And everybody reacts differently. It's just, to go back to your question about a bite earlier on, Chris, will you notice it? It's the same as you could get a bee sting, your, your—it affects you differently to someone else.
So some people we've seen online, you've seen some horrific signs, someone getting bitten on their legs and it looks really bad. Other people get bitten, they don't really, they can't really tell. But you'll know if you've been bitten because you will see some signs. But to go back to your point about can we deal with it ourselves, I've said about washing the bed clothes and, and clothing at 60 degrees. You can use a steamer on your mattress. You should vacuum your mattress frequently, um, because that gives any chance for, if, if eggs are sitting there, that will at least vacuum, it will loose those up.
Julie: Yeah.
Norman: Um, de-clutter. Don't have a lot of clutter, particularly, there are um—well, some people just leave some clothing lying around for a while. That gives them a chance to go somewhere where they can just have a little nocturnal, uh, time.
Chris: I'm guilty of that. (Laughs)
Norman: Well, this is the problem. And, and of course, that just to get rid of the myth that bedbugs are not just in an area where it's dirty. It's not, because they, you know, they, you've had this stigma in the past with young children with head lice, for instance, and straight away their parents think, "Oh no, I mean, my child's got head lice, people will think I'm a dirty person." It's not the case. And it's the same with bedbugs. Once they have traveled to your home or your commercial premises, what you've got to do is try and get rid of them.
Julie: Mmh.
Norman: So, I'll certainly tell you how we would do it.
Julie: Okay, let's play another record, and then we'll talk about how they really need professionally treating.
[Music Break & Radio Jingle]
LCR FM
Chris: Well, we're joined today by Norman Howie, the Head of Operations at Xeric Limited, of the Gelder Group. But we're here, he's here to talk about bedbugs.
Julie: Well, we've, we've talked about dealing with bedbugs in the home environment, but what other sort of premises are asking for help in dealing with bedbug situations?
Norman: Well, well this is where we, we go back to the point that they're not just in bedrooms. We've got, we've got clients, not just hotels, but pubs, restaurants, care homes, medical facilities, offices, holiday villages, prisons, and factories. They've all been affected by bedbugs in one way or another. Um, and where they harbor is quite incredible.
Chris: So basically, nowhere safe?
Norman: Yeah, well, I don't want to panic, I don't want to panic the public... (Laughs)
Chris: Is it in radio stations, eh? Did you...?
Norman: No, radio stations are fine. They, they don't, they don't come into radio stations, the music's too loud. (Laughs)
Julie: So, I, I mean I've read that the bugs are becoming more resistant to chemicals that are traditionally used to deal with them. How are you getting around that situation?
Norman: Okay, well, the unique thing about Xeric, our business, where, as we've just said, we're part of the Gelder Group, um, we don't use chemicals at all. Uh, we use our own unique equipment, and it's the largest fleet in the country. It's high energy, extreme structural heat. It's controlled and it's safe, so we don't just put heaters in there and just fire the temperature up and hope for the best. It's very much controlled, it's very safe.
All stages of the bedbugs, all stages of their life cycle, they will die at 45 degrees, and that includes the eggs—because I said earlier on about hot washes will not necessarily kill all the eggs. They'll kill all stages of their life cycle, and that's after two hours. What we do is, we go into a commercial property, domestic home, and we can deal with any of those businesses I've just listed, and we take the temperature up to 56 degrees gradually. And we'll hold that temperature for three to four hours.
We've got probes in each of the rooms, in each of the areas, and we keep an eye on it on the laptop, make sure it doesn't go below that temperature, and we'll hold it, as I say, for three to four hours. That will kill all bedbugs and eggs completely, 100%.
Julie: So does that negate having to throw your bed out, having to throw your bedhead out?
Norman: That's a fantastic point, that, um, Julie, because that's exactly it. And when it comes to commercial properties, especially hotel, you don't want to be throwing out the beds of 100 bedrooms. You don't need to throw anything out, and I mean say anything, no need to throw out cushions, quilts, pillows, no need at all. Everything is fine. And the key thing here is, you can use that commercial property or domestic home immediately. So you're not going to have to wait 24 hours for chemicals to clear or anything like that. Straight away, straight back into the property. And we do it all within 48 hours.
Chris: Okay.
Norman: So from the minute the setup takes—depending on the size of the property or commercial property, the setup could take maybe three, four hours, in some cases just an hour. We then bring the temperature up gradually, as I said, we hold that temperature, once that's done, that's the treatment completed, and then we, we take all of our equipment away, and within 48 hours, we've been and we've gone, and you're straight back into your property.
Julie: Wow. So I, I, I've read recently that they've been using dogs in some premises to, to sweep the premises to—before there's any signs of an infestation, just to check that there is no infestation, and the dogs recognize the fact that there are bedbugs in the room. Do you do anything like that? Is there any other equipment you can use to—?
Norman: Well, we've, we've no need to do that, but I mean, we're, we're obviously alerted when there are bedbugs there. Uh, but with, with regards to the dogs, yes, they are used, it's a bit like anything, the dogs can go in and detect bedbug activity. Um, they also use, in some hotels, ultrasonic devices that will indicate that there may be bedbug activity, but it's not, it's not actually 100% accurate.
The only way, once you've got bedbugs, as I say, is to use our unique equipment and get rid of the heat. The one point I will say is, I mentioned the fact that it was um, structural heat, because we are so effective, we heat—it heats up the walls, heats up the cavities, because that's where the bedbugs will also harbor...
Chris: Mmh.
Norman: ...is in the cavities of the walls. Out there you can get some small portable heaters, but all they'll do is deal with maybe the furniture and the carpets, etc., but they won't deal with the walls where some of these little creatures will harbor.
Chris: Okay. Okay. So, if there's a business listening now, how would the business know, or maybe think, that they have bedbugs on—in their premises? Is there any sort of telltale signs, or people—?
Julie: Well, I guess the same signs that would be in the house, yeah. They would get complaints.
Norman: Well, you will, you will see the signs I mentioned earlier about the little dots and, and so on on the, uh, bedsheets, if, if it is a bed in particular, but if you just simply look around, listen for those—sorry, those little fusty smells, a little sweet fusty smell, have a little look, if you've got cushions, unzip the cushions, take off the covers, have a look, and you will see activity there. You'll see the dark spots. Once you see those little dark spots that look a bit, a little bit like mold...
Julie: Yeah.
Norman: ...then you've got a problem.
Julie: Okay. Another subject that's very much in the news at the moment, um, over the last couple of weeks, of course, is flooding, and you were telling us off-air that the equipment you use to deal with the bedbugs can be used very effectively on flooded properties. Tell us more.
Norman: Yes, that, that is 100% the case, Julie. Uh, there's so much flooding going on around the Lincolnshire area, it's, it's really frightening, and it's devastating a lot of families, and especially we're coming up to Christmas time. And what would normally happen in a flooded property, uh, the water uh, disappears, but your, your actual usually downstairs is completely devastated.
Apart from all the, the content, all of the walls, the damp is crying up the walls, and normally the, the standard thing to do in a struct—in the business, uh, would be to put dehumidifiers in. The problem is, that can take five, six, maybe eight weeks in a normal domestic property, or indeed commercial property.
The thing about Xeric and the high energy and heat treatments that we offer is that we can dry out any domestic property, commercial property out within five, six, or seven days. So instead of a family in alternative accommodation—well, let's be honest, there is not much alternative accommodation out there...
Julie: No.
Norman: ...instead of them being all maybe potentially miles away from schools, miles away from their family, miles away from work, we can dry out that property within a week, we can start the, the reinstatement of all the, their kitchens, etc., put all their skirtings back in, re-plaster. And that's so much quick—it's a fraction of the time.
Julie: Because it must be so traumatic to be flooded.
Norman: Well, I've, I've gone out with a number of surveyors recently, and I've gone into some families' homes, and they're absolutely devastated...
Julie: Mmh.
Norman: ...and you can see, particularly at this time of the year, nothing's going to dry out anytime quickly. And dehumidifiers will do the job because it's an industry-standard thing. But our equipment is unique, it's the largest fleet in the country, and no one else has, has this on offer, so we're, we're here for anyone who wants to contact us.
Julie: Well, I have to say I'm—I've been fascinated to hear everything that you've had to say.
Chris: Absolutely. And all I was going to say is, you know, thank you for coming in. If anybody wants to find out more, or how to contact you to sort of learn more and to, uh, liaise with you, how can they contact you?
Norman: Well, they—if you just go onto the Xeric website, which is spelled—we've just got to get this right—it's x-e-r-i-c l-t-d, xericltd.com. All the contact details are there. Or indeed, contact the Gelder Group um, phone line, and they'll put you straight through and take all the details.
Chris: Just ask for the bedbug man. (Laughs)
Norman: That'll do. That will do, Chris. I'm more than happy with that. (Laughs)
Chris: Norman, it's been fascinating. I must admit, I, I mean, I've learned things today which I just didn't know, you know, I just assumed bedbugs were bedbugs. But they're not.
Norman: Not at all.
Chris: They can be anywhere.
Norman: Except radio stations.
Chris: Except radio stations. Look, fascinating talking to you. We're going to play out with, uh, Bruno Mars. Thank you very much. Thank you.
Julie: Thank you.
Norman: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming in.
[Music Outro]
Bruno Mars
